Wednesday, 2013-07-10

lpappor now you are telling totally different than a few minutes ago?00:00
seebsAnd guess what: My primary field of interest isn't programming. It's things like "why do people get offended by this".00:00
seebsOr "how do I express this without people getting mad".00:00
lpappand you have read it, yet you asked for summary/00:00
lpapp?00:00
lpappwell, sorry for putting it this way, but I am ignoring you now for a bit.00:00
seebsYeah.00:00
lpappbluelightning: I told him several times I fully disagree.00:00
seebsThat's why people are accusing you of  trolling, see.00:00
lpappbluelightning: what is wrong about disagreeing?00:00
lpappbluelightning: then he kept repeating00:00
lpappbluelightning: the same stuff again, again, and again00:00
seebsBecause the moment someone shows up who actually has competent expertise to answer your specific questions about why people think you are complaining, you get mad and announce that you're ignoring them.00:01
lpappbluelightning: I understood the first time as well, but I fully disagreed00:01
lpappbluelightning: he did not stop iterating the same stuff, so I tried to emphasize.00:01
lpappbluelightning: it is not any bad mannaer00:01
lpappbluelightning: it is about making the point more clearly.00:01
seebsYou have repeatedly said and done things that would be *normally expected* to result in people being offended and insulted.00:01
lpappit is not shouting, it is highlighting the point.00:01
lpappbluelightning: with very bad faith, it is shouting yes.00:01
seebsSo, yeah. That is the sort of thing which gets categorized as trolling. And now I'll stop, and I apologize to the other channel folks for the traffic.00:02
bluelightninglpapp: most often it's interpreted as shouting00:02
lpappbluelightning: yes, for IRC newcomers with bad faith00:02
lpappbluelightning: for an experienced IRC user with good faith, it is hardly an issue00:03
lpappbluelightning: I get those all day along in other channels, and it is the right way of highlighting information to me, as well.00:03
bluelightninglpapp: this is the internet, it's hard for people to convert textual communication into our interpretation of a discussion00:03
lpappbluelightning: which is exactly why they SHOULD NOT have bad faith.00:03
lpappI would even propose it as a channel guideline.00:04
bluelightninglpapp: I can't speak for other channels, but in the ones I frequent, all caps is a rarity and usually because to my mind at least it equates to shouting00:04
lpappdoes that make sense?00:04
bluelightninganyway, we are debating fine points here00:04
bluelightningI'm just trying to explain how people may have got annoyed and been less than polite as a result00:04
lpappbluelightning: I understand they got annoyed by nuances.00:05
lpappbluelightning: but that can only happen by bad faith which people should not have.00:05
lpappbluelightning: hence my proposal is to make it as a channel guideline to have good faith in this channel.00:05
lpappif people get annoyed by such nuances as capitals for highlighting the point, that is very bad.00:06
lpappespecially since anyone can come here with such a style for using capitals for good.00:06
bluelightninglpapp: it's not *just* that00:06
lpappwithout intending to be rude or harsh, whatsoever.00:06
lpappit would be a very silly reason to become "unfriendly" and start throwing shit, like "trolling".00:07
lpappI think only good channel guideline can defend this situation.00:07
lpappin fact, just checked another channel, and sometimes even stars are used in combination with capitals to highlight important notes. :)00:08
seebsI have actually known a number of people who mostly don't get mad or upset over "nuances" like typing in all caps and such.00:08
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seebsI think I know maybe six such people, and all of them are autistic. So I am thinking that a channel guideline equivalent to "you must be autistic to post here" might be unduly restrictive.00:09
lpappbluelightning: so how about a channel guideline to have "good faith", and assume constructivity and do not go mad before capitals, etc?00:10
seebsBut the alternative is probably to accept that some people will take offense at some communications for reasons that are not entirely related to the intended communicative content of those communications. And adapt to this, possibly by trying to avoid things that consistently result in people being offended.00:10
lpappbecause of capitals*00:11
bluelightninglpapp: I was just giving you one example of how the situation escalated when it need not have00:11
bluelightninglpapp: people don't have endless patience00:11
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lpappbluelightning: there is no need for any patience as a capital is simply not requiring patience.00:12
lpappit is a void stuff for patience.00:12
bluelightningultimately people are humans, people will misinterpret, and they will get annoyed particularly if you criticise stuff that they work on, so you have to be careful how you do it00:13
lpappin fact, it is necessary at times to highlight certain points of a conversation.00:13
lpappthey are not good maintainers for the project then if they get offended by constructive critics especially where even a valid proposal is brought up.00:13
seebsI have lost at least one job for not knowing that. In retrospect, this is hilarious to me now. It was less funny then.00:14
lpappbacked by several people and projects, and in the end, I have been told here that it could actually even be accepted upstream.00:14
frayseebs, I thought you lost the same job multiple times...  maybe not for this though00:14
frayof course the guy deciding he was going to "tell your boss you didn't know C" was amusing00:14
seebsAh, no, that was different. That was just layoffs and stuff.00:15
bluelightninglpapp: so, based on a complete reading of the above, I'm not sure I'd characterise your feedback as entirely constructive00:15
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seebsBut like 20 years ago, I had some kind of newbie QA job, and I got in ALL sorts of hot water and ultimately lost it because, unbeknownst to me, if a newbie QA contractor says the senior devs are producing crappy code, that goes over poorly.00:15
lpappbluelightning: it is fully constructive.00:15
seebsThat said.00:15
lpappbluelightning: I thoroughly explained a problem down to the details.00:15
lpappbluelightning: and I proposed a solution discussed with several people based on tons of open source projects cross-platform.00:16
seebsIf I were writing a performance-critical thing, where failures and even *delays* could cost tens of thousands of dollars. And I were writing a case-insensitive string compare. I would not allocate copies of both strings, then smash case, then compare, then free the copies.00:16
seebsBut, and this is the important thing: Saying it was crap didn't get it fixed.00:16
seebsIf I had pursued that more tactfully, I might have been able to get it fixed AND continue collecting paychecks.00:17
lpappbluelightning: and I was about to vote for an existing bugreport, or open a new one, and then bring up on the mailing list00:17
fraybugzilla.yoctoproject.org  feel free to add you issue as a bug report00:17
lpappbluelightning: one of the very ideal workflows if you ask me, really.00:17
fraythis doesn't take voting or feedback.. just do it00:17
bluelightninglpapp: so what I'd suggest is that at least in my timezone it's kind of late, and people's tempers probably aren't in the best shape... I for one need to get some sleep, so perhaps we can try to go back through the technical issues tomorrow00:17
seebsSleep good, BL!00:18
lpappbluelightning: I already lost my motivation by called a troll, and complaining person.00:18
lpappbluelightning: so you can guess my motivation to help Yocto in the future.00:18
lpappby being*00:18
seebsBTW, apropos of nothing: I've been working on pseudo's diagnostics in my spare time, there may be an update available soonish which has basically no impact on behavior except diagnostic messages. But that effect might be pretty nice.00:18
bluelightningseebs: that sounds useful00:19
lpappbluelightning: a few days ago I even offered my help with python 3. I would like to withdraw that after this incident.00:19
seebsPhase 1 is done, PSEUDO_DEBUG now accepts lists of flags as well as numbers, so you can request things like "logging related to IPC" without picking up all the other stuff.00:20
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seebsAnd the computations of arguments for the call are inside the flag test, so expensive argument computations are skipped if the flag in question isn't set.00:21
seebsPhase 2 is to add a lot more messages and improve the clarity of the diagnostics so they're more communicative.00:21
lpappbluelightning: and not because of the technical disagreement, but by few people's reaction for a technical feedback.00:21
frayseebs, were there expensive computions outside of the debug before?00:21
seebsSort of.00:21
frayahh any performance improvement is a good thing00:22
bluelightninglpapp: well, that is entirely up to you... again, I'm sorry you feel like you've been mistreated00:22
seebsIn current pseudo outside me tree, if you define NDEBUG, you'll get no computations, but if it's there, then pseudo_debug(9999, "test", expensive_call()); will make expensive_call() regardless of the debug level.00:22
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frayahh00:22
seebsIn the new tree, pseudo_debug(DBGF_IPC, "test", expensive_call()) expands roughly to if (debug_flags & DBGF_IPC) { pseudo_diag("test", expensive_call()); }00:23
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seebsIt's fancier than that, but not by a ton, and most of the extra fanciness is going to optimize away at compile time.00:23
lpappbluelightning: see how many people jumped on me without even caring to read the history through.00:23
lpappbluelightning: that generated a lot of additional noise (that is why I am not talking to everyone anymore, just you now)00:24
bluelightninglpapp: based on my reading, I'm not sure they really needed to00:25
bluelightninglpapp: anyway I really need to get some sleep, I will be back in here tomorrow (just as I am every day...)00:25
lpappbluelightning: well, they asked for summarization and when they had been told to read the history, they refused...00:25
lpappbluelightning: if they did not need, they should not ask for summarization.00:26
lpappbluelightning: in fact, the first offensive "mood" was that when "complaining" was brought up. I think that made this very bad.00:26
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lpappbluelightning: and that is why I proposed the channel guide line modification so that it cannot happen yet again that people call others "complaining", just because they have a different vision.00:27
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bluelightningI'll just reiterate that when several different people explain why things are the way they are and you just say it should be like other applications without trying to understand what they're telling you, that is not really constructive00:34
bluelightninganyway I am really going now00:34
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lpappreiterating does not make true though. :)00:36
lpappit*00:36
lpappas written many times, I did understand what that guy wrote, but I fully disagreed with doing it that way even if it is that is the best "way" with yocto/poky.00:36
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lpappI still do not understand "what mood you provided" is bad.00:37
lpappso far, it is an unfounded statement.00:37
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lpappecho 'INHERIT += "rm_work"' > meta/conf/bitbake.conf did not help as in, I am still not getting the built stuff removed. Any clue for something working?06:11
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zeckerburton_: what is the reasoning to have the busybox syslogd have two different config files depending on systemd || sysvinit?06:36
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lpapphi, is it enough to issue bitbake minimal-core-image to resume the operation from yesterday?07:28
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bluelightningmorning all08:11
lpappmoin08:12
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agherzanHello all.08:36
agherzanI have a pretty strange error. I have a custom packagegroup which is included in an image. When i increment the pr in that pkggroup, from time to time, i get this error: http://pastebin.com/9L7Qn8yu08:38
agherzanHere is the packagegroup file: http://pastebin.com/B2nSrDpE08:40
agherzanAnybody saw this before and can give me a hint?08:40
tfagherzan: is the file it cannot find matching the old pr ?08:41
zeckebluelightning: morning08:41
bluelightninghi zecke08:41
agherzantf: sorry, didn't understand08:42
zeckebluelightning: I had a question for rburton but maybe you happen to know the answer too. Currently there are two ways to configure the busybox syslogd. They depend on whether systemd or sysvinit is used08:42
tfagherzan: packagegroup-multimedia-1.0-r1: is r1 the current or the previous pr?08:42
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agherzantf: r3 is current, r2 was previous08:43
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agherzantf: just an increment08:43
bluelightningzecke: right, it's a similar situation for a few daemons08:43
tfso, there is something in the buildstats task that is not getting rebuilt08:44
bluelightningzecke: I think we unified it for ntpd in meta-oe though, so it should be fixable08:44
agherzantf: sorry for the confusion. the packagemanager was packagegroup-multimedia. And i pasted the graphics. Indeed the old pr was 1 and now is 2.08:45
tfagherzan: take a look at the run_buildstats script, see why it did not rebuilt08:47
agherzantf thanks. the problem is that i lost it already as i forced the rebuild...08:48
tfit looks like it is taking something from the state cache that it should not08:48
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zeckebluelightning: does it make sense to open a ticket? For my product I am mostly 'convinced' (the performance issues are not bad enough to discard it) but I will use the busybox syslogd instead of the journald for now. But our BSP layer targets multiple versions of Yocto/Poky and having one file to select things would be appreciated. :)08:51
bluelightningzecke: yes please file an enhancement request for this08:52
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MicHi09:01
MicPACKAGEFUNC09:01
MicI have added a function to this.09:01
Micbut uImage and dtb file are not found from package direcories.09:02
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zeckebluelightning_: I filed #4837. If someone would ack that the proposed solution is okay, then I can send a patch for that09:04
zeckerburton_: good morning, do you have time to comment on https://bugzilla.yoctoproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4837? it is about busybox syslog and systemd vs. sysvinit in regard to config files09:04
yoctiBug 4837: enhancement, Undecided, ---, saul.wold, NEW , busybox syslog has two different configuration files depending on the init system09:04
MicHi I asked yesterday what is best way to sign files and packages. I have create a class to add function to PACKAGEFUNCS09:06
MicI guess PACKAGEFUNCS can be used to sign the files09:06
Micbut how can I sign the uimage and dtb files? and how should I sign the packages?09:07
MicShould I create a seperate class for linux and other one for recipes09:08
Mic?09:08
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rburton_goddamn 3g09:09
MicCan anybody comment?09:10
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MicHow do I get yocto to print bb.note() messages to screeen during compilation?10:08
Miclike it does for bb.warn10:08
Micor are those only printed to log_* files10:10
blitz00Mic, note message end up only in log files10:10
Micis there any way to print informative message s to screen10:10
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bluelightningMic: you can do bb.plain, but generally we avoid printing informational messages from the metadata outside of logs10:16
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Micalright10:17
MicI spoke to you yesterday about PACKAGEFUNCS. Do you think this method can be used for signing the packet rpm?10:20
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pevMorning all! Sorry another newbie question from me - Just getting my head around layers... I want to create a new layer that contains all my project specific customisations that go on top of the BSP i.e. application, additional conf, some out of tree modules and so on. I assume this is the right thing to do. What I can't work out is how that relates to existing layers... The image(s) I build at the mo come from image bb files in the BSP layer. Do I somehow inherit /10:34
pev extend these from my new layer or do I change the BSP layer to reference my new one? Sorry it's a bit vague but I can't work it out yet from the docs!10:34
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tfpev, you have a list of layers to use in the bblayers.conf10:39
tfeach leayer has a priority number (in it's own layer.conf)10:39
tfthis is used to determine which recipe to use if there same recipe is in more than one layer10:40
tfconf files are slightly different; they get pulled out in the order in which the layers are added to the layers path in the bblayers.conf10:41
tfif you need to modify a recipe that is in some other layer, you do that using a bbappend10:42
pevI've been reading up on that and think I have a rough understanding... Its more that at the moment I build the image via the target meta-mybsp/packages/images/my-image.bb10:43
pevso if I create my new layer (say meta-myapp) with the app specific stuff in, am I trying to bbappend that image from the other layer or do I somehow reference meta-myapp from whats in meta-mybsp?10:44
tfpev: http://www.yoctoproject.org/docs/current/dev-manual/dev-manual.html10:44
pevThat's what I'm staring at scratching my head over at the mo!10:44
pevsection 5.1...10:45
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lpapphi, can it be considered as success:10:46
lpappNOTE: Tasks Summary: Attempted 1614 tasks of which 262 didn't need to be rerun and all succeeded.10:46
lpappSummary: There were 181 WARNING messages shown.10:46
pevtf: or am I missing something?! Does this all happen automagically when you add the layer to your conf in the $WORKDIR?10:46
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tfpev: you just create your layer as described in section 5.1, that's all that is required10:47
pevtf: OK, so at the moment my build env gets populated from meta-mybsp/conf/local.conf.sample and bblayers.conf.sample - If I populate the new meta-myapp/conf with copies of those then adapt to my new layer conf that would be the right way to go?10:50
tfyes10:51
tfbut if you are adding packages to the image, you should probably write your own image recipe10:51
pevBrilliant, thanks! Lets give it a go and see what happens...10:52
pevWould you not bbappend the standard one?10:52
pev(standard being the current one im using from the bsp)10:52
lpapp/home/lpapp/Projects/poky/meta/files/common-licenses/* could not be copied for some reason. It may not exist. WARN for now. -> why do I see many warnings like that?10:52
tfpersonally, I'd not do bbappend to image recipe, it becomes quite a different image once you modify it10:53
tfpev: but there is nothing stopping to use a bbappend10:54
pevtf: ack. Will give it a go the simplest way for now then have a crack at duplicating the image recipes as a secondary task (its esp confusing as there are three recipes for different types of images...)10:55
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ant_worklpapp: http://www.yoctoproject.org/docs/1.4/dev-manual/dev-manual.html#licensing. The error comes from license.bbclass. Maybe some of your custom recipes?11:40
lpappno, it is upstream master, vanilla.11:40
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zaifHow to replace opencv outdated bitbake file?11:55
mulhernWhat does Bitbake do differently between package1 DEPENDS on package2 vs. package1 RDEPENDS on package2? I know that R stands for runtime, but that can mean so many different things.11:56
rburton_mulhern: depends is build-time dependency, so will be built first11:58
rburton_mulhern: rdepends turns into a binary package dependency11:58
rburton_so the generated binary package will have the dependency11:58
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mulhernrburton: So, if a package1 loads a shared object library of package2 is it just RDEPENDS on package2 since it only needs the headers at compile (pre-processor) time?12:02
rburton_mulhern: the headers won't exist until you built package2, so you need a DEPENDS12:02
rburton_the library linkage is detected and added to RDEPENDS for you, so you don't have to do that yourself12:03
mulhernrburton: OK…that may be where I went wrong.12:03
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lpappah, so meta-foo is not the only option for customization, but one can also have custom recipes...12:04
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bluelightninglpapp: I think we addressed those by supplying more of the common license files in later versions12:45
lpappbluelightning: later than master HEAD?12:45
bluelightninglpapp: ah sorry I thought you were still using an older version12:46
bluelightningdoes the file it indicates exist?12:46
lpappyes12:48
zeckeis it still possible to use a different gcc for building the kernel? is there any example in tree?12:50
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RPzecke: CC_pn-linux-xxxx = "yyy" ;-)12:52
Crofton|workRP, move away from the computer12:54
RPCrofton|work: It sounds crazy but right now I'm near enough physically unable to do that :/12:54
Crofton|workHave you fallen off the motorcycle?12:54
RPI suspect I've overdone this being active business :/12:55
RPCrofton|work: just totally worn out. I did fall off the bike but that isn't related to this12:55
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Crofton|workwell, look at cat pictures then12:55
RPCrofton|work: right :)12:56
Crofton|workbtw the Linaro talk on OE was pretty good12:56
Crofton|workthere was even a special guest expert at the end12:56
RPCrofton|work: I looked at the link, yes it was12:56
RPI noticed :)12:56
Crofton|workIt looks like the project to infiltrate Linaro is going well12:57
RPCrofton|work: heh :)12:58
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zeckeRP: wb!13:05
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Crofton|workHe's still on vacation :)13:09
Crofton|workHe should be outside reaing a book in sunny England!13:09
RPCrofton|work: I did just that yesterday! :)13:10
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zeckeRP: I have a funny bitbake problem. I am not sure how this is supposed to behave. My BSP layer attempts to target multiple versions of Yocto. So I have a yocto-master/busybox_1.21.bbappend and all this file is doing is to require another shared file13:44
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zeckeRP: the file is called busysbox_sysmocom.inc or busysbox_systmocom_systemd.inc.. and then PN PV point to busysmocom-sysmocom and PV can be systemd and PKGV is systemd too13:45
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pevI14:39
pevIf I'm overriding an image creation .bb with a .bbappend in my new layer, is there an easy way I can work out why it's not working? All I'm doing is putting in it an IMAGE_INSTALL += new-package.14:40
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zaifWhere can i find Gstreamer bitbake file?14:56
JaMain oe-core14:57
JaMapev: bitbake -e14:57
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kergoth`pev: also make sure your layer.conf is correct14:58
pevThanks! Yep, it looked like layer.conf wasnt including my dir...14:59
pevAlso, is there a quick definition somewhere of the conventions used for the recipe-* naming and contents?14:59
rburton_pev: the convention for recipe-* folders is make up your own naming, suitable for the layer15:00
pevrburton_: So just make it up as I go along? :-D15:00
pevTheres a recipe for disaster15:00
pev(sorry couldn't resist)15:00
rburton_bikeshedding a canonical list of software groups for everyone wouldn't be a good use of time :)15:01
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bluelightningbut, but, I like bikeshedding :D15:04
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tfbluelightning: shush!15:05
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CroftonI tend to copy existing names15:06
rburton_yeah, copying the eg oe-core naming  makes sense for familiarity15:07
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rburton_bluelightning: my preferred bike shed colour is terracotta15:07
tfrburton_: now there is a surprise ;-)15:07
bluelightningrburton_: burnt sienna is so much nicer15:08
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lpapphi, do people also build u-boot as part of yocto, or just the linux kernel?15:38
rburton_lpapp: people using yocto to build their embedded system generally use yocto to build all of it, boot loader through to app15:38
lpappk15:40
lpappthanks15:40
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fin_I was able to run bitbake minimal core image ... with default package setting package_rpm15:50
fin_however when I changed to package_tar it gives error15:51
fin_has anybody tried to us the package tar??15:51
kergoth`package_tar is of limited use, can't be used to build images, for example15:51
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rburton_we seriously need to purge the documentation of package_tar15:52
rburton_considering it's actually a waste of time15:52
fin_so it isn't an option in the local conf15:52
fin_Do you have suggestion if you want to have you packages .tar.gz15:52
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rburton_fin_: use rpm/dpkg/ipkg instead?15:53
rburton_tarballs have no dependencies, so they're of limited use and don't really count as "packages"15:53
kergoth`tar.gz is not a packaging format15:53
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kergoth`package_tar 's only real use is easier examining of package contents, in *addition* to one of the other packaging formats, but even that's limited, given it's not hard to examine rpm or ipk or deb contents :)15:54
rburton_oh, package_tar isn't in the current docs at all. good.15:54
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fin_ok I need to look in to our requirement a bit more.15:55
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bluelightningbasically package_tar can handle individual packages, but it cannot support image generation15:55
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kergoth`in theory we could create images from tar files, but we'd have to leverage 100% bitbake's knowledge of runtime dependnecies from pkgdata, since the packages themselves wouldn't have that information15:56
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bluelightningright15:56
kergoth`but there's no real point given you can build an image with another format and then exclude the packaging bits from the image15:56
kergoth`:)15:56
bluelightningi.e. basically reimplement a hacky package manager ourselves :)15:56
kergoth`indeed15:56
kergoth`point of interest, that's exactly what oe-lite does, which is part of why they can't really support some of the use cases we can15:57
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fin_ok another question. I need to sign the created packages that are created by a recipe. I want to do in a class15:58
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fin_So I need to access the created package after it is deployed I guess15:59
kergoth`should be able to just add a task that runs after the packaging tsaks, or use a postfunc on them16:00
fin_What is the variablle I should use to access the directory and var to access the package name16:01
fin_?16:01
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kergoth`best off examining package_*.bbclass, i think16:02
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bluelightningfin_: depends on whether you want to look at the package contents or the completed package16:04
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fin_This time complete package16:05
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fin_Do you have any suggestion?16:15
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bluelightningfin_: I'd probably look at adding a task that depends on do_package_write16:20
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bluelightningfin_: there is DEPLOY_DIR_RPM to find the directory containing RPMs (and similar for other package backends)16:22
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fin_Those tasks are a bit confusing. is it defined some place in which order tasks are run. if you run listtasks for a recipe it doesn't print the tasks in processing order16:40
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kergoth`the addtask lines define the inter-task dependencies16:41
fin_but you need to scour the whole code for that16:44
Garibaldi|workwhat is SRCREV_FORMAT, I can't seem to find anything about what it's supposed to contain.16:47
JaMaGaribaldi|work: grep layers for examples16:48
JaMaGaribaldi|work: it's needed when you have multiple SCM repositories in the same recipe16:48
Garibaldi|workah, thanks16:48
Garibaldi|workshould have grepped first :-)16:48
rtollert/users16:49
* rtollert blushes16:50
Garibaldi|workyeah, it's similar to what I saw online, I see it set to "meta_machine", but I'm not connecting "meta_machine" with SCM repos?16:50
JaMaGaribaldi|work: see name= parameter in SRC_URI16:53
JaMaand version shown by linux-yocto recipes: gitAUTOINC+1bab5bd090948b4cc4c4ed57c834603a3cf9f235_fff57da7886cf5e99c07adf6649610cb1cd89330-r6.416:53
Garibaldi|workah, damn16:53
JaMafirst is hash from name=meta repository second is from name=machine16:54
Garibaldi|workyeah, I looked for meta_machine16:54
Garibaldi|workthanks again16:54
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mulhernWhat is packages-split for?18:51
mulherngetting an "installed but not shipped" QA error --- at what stage are the files being dropped?18:52
kergoth`exactly what it sounds like, it splits up the do_install output for inclusion in individual binary packages18:52
kergoth`PACKAGES lists the binary packages to be emitted, FILES_<pkgname> defines the files/directories to be included inthat package18:52
seebsIt's not so much "dropped" as "not picked up".18:54
seebsYou start with the set of all files you install. For each package, FILES_<pkgname> are grabbed and removed from the set of "installed" files that other packages could grab.18:55
seebsWhen you run out of packages, if there's files left, that means they are installed but not shipped, which is usually an error.18:55
mulhernseebs: Thanks. But what is the purpose? What's the point of all that splitting and filtering?18:55
seebsWell, the point of the splitting is to give a mechanism for package granularity, so if you have a large source package it isn't an all-or-nothign thing.18:56
seebsEven in simple cases, it can be nice to separate out documentation, debug info, and the like.18:56
seebsBut some things can have a fairly large number of subpackages; for instance, I think the various binary locale data sets each get their own package.18:57
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kergoth`mulhern: granular packaging allows one to tailor the exact contents of your root filesystems, and keep disk spacxe down without blindly throwing contents away permanently18:57
mulhernmulhern: I've been accepting the defaults for PACKAGES variable. What is the default for what goes into the root filesystem?18:59
fraythe image is comprised of dependencies based on packages..18:59
mulhernI'm sorry I keep typing my name…it's weird.18:59
frayso if the image has an IMAGE_INSTALL of "foobar"  then the package 'foobar' will be installed, and anything it depends on19:00
fraybut foobar-dev won't be19:00
fraybut if your image doesn't list 'foobar' then it won't ever be installed..19:00
frayyou need to think about the build as:19:00
frayrecipe name -> package(s)19:00
frayso bitbake foobar   associates to the foobar -recipe-, while the IMAGE_INSTALL 'foobar' referes to the package named foobar.. these are two different namespaces, and may have overlap -- or may not19:01
fray:)19:01
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mulhernfray: OK, and what is package subdirectory for then?19:03
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kergoth`i wish runqemu didn't make assumptions about DEPLOY_DIR layout19:04
fraythe packages are in tmp/deploy/<package>/<arch> for the most part..19:07
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fraybut you can't just use that as a reference because there are some 'package rename' games going on under the hood..19:07
frayyou have to match the 'PACKAGES' names in you image install19:07
kergoth`you should be able to use both pre-rename and post-rename package naems in IMAGE_INSTALL, as far as I'm aware. the rename mapping will leave existing names as is19:08
* kergoth` shrugs19:08
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fraykergoth didn't work before because IMAGE_INSTALL ends up becoming the RDEPENDS of the image recipe.. and the system can't map the post-rename 'names' to the recipes for dependencies19:09
frayit works in some cases where the name happens to match a packages_dynamic wildcard.. but it fails in many cases.. (or did last time I tried it)19:09
kergoth`Hmm, if so, that's unfortunate19:09
frayproblem also with using the renmaed values, if someone disabled the debian rename.. your image recipe won;'t work right anymore19:10
kergoth`good point19:10
fray(image.bbclass)19:11
kergoth`honestly, i rather dislike debian renaming, i'd rather see it inject RPROVIDES, and even then just for ipk19:11
frayDEPENDS += "${MLPREFIX}qemuwrapper-cross ${MLPREFIX}depmodwrapper-cross"19:11
frayRDEPENDS += "${IMAGE_INSTALL} ${LINGUAS_INSTALL} ${NORMAL_FEATURE_INSTALL} ${RO$19:11
frayRRECOMMENDS += "${NORMAL_FEATURE_INSTALL_OPTIONAL}"19:11
kergoth`since rpm can handle soname based stuff already19:11
kergoth`heh19:11
fraykergoth, same here.. whenever I have a bug, I just disable it.. fix the bug and then turn it back on and verify.. it just gets in the way19:11
* kergoth` nods19:11
kergoth`well, the one advantage for ipk i can think of is you can then install both libc5 and libc6 in the same system (or whatever)19:12
kergoth`which wouldn't be the case with rprovids19:12
frayya.. but I'm not sure we ever have that issue19:12
kergoth`i think package feed oriented distros that want to retain long term upgradability could see it as an issue they could hit in real situations19:13
kergoth`not sure, though19:13
frayya, I've definitely not hit that point yet..  package feeds still seem fragile for the average user/developer19:14
kergoth`keeping an upgrade path smooth is a truly massive effort, wer'e definitely not on par with debian there19:14
kergoth`you could need db schema migrations, etc in postinsts for upgrades, blah blah19:14
frayit's going to take automated testing to really do that.. as well as ways to reject bad packages...19:15
frayand we're definitely not there yet as a group19:15
frayI'm still fighting to grasp/explain ssate-cache/PR server interactions and how best to tell users to share them in a workgroup19:15
kergoth`i expect today angstrom are the only ones that care, but i could see it being a concern for anyone that wants to leverage packages to implement field upgrades19:15
kergoth`heh, seing pcakage versions go backwards due to use of previous sstates?19:16
frayya..  we've asked our customers and they simply don't do package level distribution field upgrade, they only do individual package field upgrades..19:16
fraykergoth` we understadn the issue.. it's identifying it and telling users how to avoid it we're strugling with.. because PR server and sstate-cache are separate ssytems..19:16
* kergoth` nods19:16
frayit would be nice if there was a way to tie them together into a single infrastructure..19:16
frayi.e. sstate-cache had exported PR information in it, that the PR server (external to that) would first load before the system tried to download the sstate-cache19:17
fraybut AFAIK, the 'proxy-level' pr server functionality was never implemented19:17
frayI'd love to see.. project pr-server queries WG server, which can query sstate-cache server..19:18
frayno matching PR, sstate-cache downlod is aborted and a build happens.. PR is returned and the -matching- PR/sstate is fetched19:18
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fray(and in the above, if there is no 'WG' that level of indirection is skipped)19:20
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